My wife keeps telling me: “every time you bake you keep saying ‘Wow this is the best bread I have ever made’ the saying is getting old now… Hmmm, this is delicious bread though, I think it is your best so far.” I’ve had some recent bakes that have just been a step or two above my usual. I find it hard to stop eating slice after slice with anything I can moderately justify placing on top (I even scraped up some onions and currants from a recent meal we had and used it in a sandwich—yikes that was good.). It’s dangerous when your bread just comes out great; you become a somewhat selfish person and hoard all the slices for yourself. And in this post, my sourdough bread with a young levain ranks pretty high up there.
This post has me continuing my streak of experiments with high hydration sourdough bread using a “young” levain (as I mentioned in the last entry). Chad, in Tartine Bread, makes it a point to say he usually uses a young levain and prefers this to a more ripe version. It’s an interesting approach, something I’ve enjoyed exploring.
As an aside, I keep the acid load in my starter to a minimum by either feeding it once a day with a hefty amount of flour (~100g) or multiple feedings per day. Doing either of these will discard most of the acidity produced by your starter, which in the end will push the resulting loaf away from a sour one. This subtle sourness is my preference. So, how can you tell if your starter is fermenting too fast by the time you feed it again? Just give it a smell right before you do your regular feeding. Does it smell sourish and vinegary? Is it very soupy and runny? It probably needs to be fed with more flour or an earlier feeding. See my previous post on starter management for more information on these topics.
How young can this young levain be and still rise your bread properly? This entry has me using my levain at the earliest ever, just 3 hours after mixing in the early morning. I was very, very skeptical it was going to have enough strength to leaven my dough, but I did a quick float test (which isn’t a definitive test, but still a good general indicator) and sure enough, it floated happily at the top of my glass. I decided to go ahead and proceed knowing if it didn’t work out at least I’d have an excellent story to writeup here.
As you well know, I’ve been making only whole wheat bread for a little while now and have become accustomed to wrangling that dough into a loaf that has some loft to it. Well, the bulk step on this dough sure was a breeze. As it was progressing I could see the strength develop quite quickly, but in the beginning, the dough was very slack, I probably pushed the hydration a little too far. Next attempt with this flour will be done with slightly lower hydration, say 3-5%.
Sourdough Bread with a Young Levain
Prepare the levain – 6:45 a.m.
The following levain build was kept at around 77°F (24°C) ambient temperature and started in the morning on the day I mixed the dough, rather than the night before.
- 25g ripe starter
- 50g Bob’s Red Mill whole wheat flour
- 50g Sangre de Cristo white flour (King Arthur all-purpose flour would also work well)
- 100g water
After mixing the above in a thick-walled glass container, cover and set in a slightly warm area, around 77°F (24°C), for about 3 hours. The warm water helped move the fermentation along to get this levain ready in short order. I usually do a build that lasts around 10-12 hours overnight starting with room temperature water. As I mentioned above, it readily passed the float test, and so I proceeded.
I should also mention that at this point my starter is a rather vigorous animal. I created my starter using my post on creating a sourdough starter from scratch a while ago, I refresh my starter twice per day, and it has gone without refrigeration for some time. When maintained properly a starter can get rather active, which is a great thing because this strong fermentation activity will transfer to the dough given the right conditions.
Keep an eye on your levain and employ the float test from time to time if you are unsure, each starter is different, and thus you must adjust your timetable to suit! Let’s start the autolyse.
Autolyse & Mix – 9:45 a.m.
Gather the following ingredients:
| Weight | Ingredient | Baker’s Percentage |
|---|---|---|
| 900g | All-purpose white flour (Sangre de Cristo) | 90% |
| 100g | Whole wheat flour (King Arthur whole wheat flour) | 10% |
| 20g | Salt | 2% |
| 900g | Water | 90% |
| 225g | Ripe levain | 22.5% |
Method:
One Hour Autolyse:
- In a thick bowl add in your 225g levain
- Add 850g water to your mixing bowl and mix with your hand until the levain is wholly dissolved
- Add in your white and whole wheat flours
- Mix by hand until all the dry flour is incorporated
- Cover with plastic wrap and keep covered in a warmish place in your kitchen at around 77°F (24°C) for 1 hour
While your dough is in autolyse thing, head outside for a bit while it’s still cool. I took my German shepherd, the “beast,” for a quick hike through the mesa near our house. I enjoy hiking around as she runs around me investigating every single bush, lizard, mysterious hole, and the occasional rabbit. Signs of Spring are emerging, and the foliage in my area is flush with flours and the trees are all turning green. This month is one of my favorite times of the year as it signals the time for me to emerge, get some more sun, and do some exercise outside.
Ok, back from your activities outside? Let’s get on with this, time to mix things up. After a full one hour autolyse:
Add to your autolysed dough:
- 20g sea salt
- Remaining 50g warm water
Cut the salt into the dough by mixing with your hands. Keep mixing relatively gently until the salt is mixed through and the dough turns a bit sticky.
| Final dough temperature: | 78°F (25°C) |
Bulk Fermentation – 10:45 a.m.
You’ll notice after the autolyse and mix the dough has some pretty good strength to it, yet it is extensible enough to stretch out without snapping back.
- 11:30 a.m. – Turn Set 1
- 12:00 a.m. – Turn Set 2
- 12:30 p.m. – Turn Set 3
- 1:00 p.m. – Turn Set 4
- 1:30 p.m. – Turn Set 5
- 2:00 p.m. – Turn Set 6
- 2:30 p.m. – Turn Set 7 (Easy set of turns)
- 3:00 p.m. – 4:00 p.m. – Rest on counter untouched
Note that a “Turn Set” here is 4 stretch and folds. I reach under my dough, pull up, and fold over the other side that’s done four times.
I had to up the number of turn sets during this bulk fermentation as the dough was pretty slack. The extended autolyse relaxes the gluten a little more than my usual 40 minutes, and the very high hydration also promotes a very extensible dough. After doing my folds at step #4, I could see I had to keep with the turns as the dough didn’t hold it’s shape well enough. An excellent visual indicator is by the time you’re done doing your four folds for that set, take notice of how the dough is resting in your bowl. If it isn’t holding its shape very well, meaning it kind of spreads out quickly after that last turn, you should probably do another set in 30 minutes.
Pre-shape – 4:00 p.m.
Take the dough out of the container onto your work surface and sprinkle some flour on top before dividing. Divide the mass into two halves and lightly spin each half with your dough knife in one hand and your other hand. Let this pre-shape rest, covered with a damp towel or inverted bowls, for 20 minutes.
Lightly dust your proofing baskets with white or brown rice flour in preparation for the next step.
Shape + Proof – 4:20 p.m.
I’m going to warn you here, this 90% hydration dough is very tricky to shape. Only keep your hands in contact with the dough when necessary and always keep them lightly floured. Even doing all this you might have trouble lifting the dough off your surface, and you’ll surely have dough sticking to your bench knife and hands. It’s ok though, that’s part of the fun, and things will improve with practice.
Given the fact that my dough was so extensible, I decided to shape both of them as a batard. I was able to get quite a tight skin on the outside of these loaves, but they needed some support in their proofing baskets.
When hydration gets very high like this, I’ve started providing a little extra support to my proofing dough with linen in my bannetons. I place a flour sack towel on the bottom of the basket tied around at the rim with a rubber band. This holds the towel a bit off the bottom of the basket to keep the dough from expanding out too far filling the entire base.
After shaping both loaves, place them into their proofing baskets and cover each tightly. Please them immediately into the fridge for their overnight, cold proof.
Score + Bake – 7:15 a.m.
The morning I was to bake these two loaves was a very busy one. We are selling our home and moving to a new place across town and had a realtor showing in the early afternoon. Knowing I’d have to clean things up after the bake and that they would also see a loaf of freshly baked bread on the counter, I decided to go ahead and bake (I mean really, wouldn’t the house smell so amazing anyone viewing the house would just want to buy it immediately?). I guess my real fear was that these visitors would walk off with my hard work and enjoy my bread in the car on their ride to the next house… Remember my comments above about selfishness?
Preheat your oven to 450°F (230°C). I baked these loaves following my guide to baking in a Dutch oven (or combo cooker).
Because of the length fermentation time, I bake these loaves straight from the fridge. When your oven is preheated, take one of your loaves out of the fridge and cut a piece of parchment paper to fit the top of the basket containing the dough. Take your peel and then put it on top of those two and quickly invert it, so the dough is now resting on the parchment paper and the peel. Score the top of your batard with a crescent slash from top of the loaf to bottom at about 30° from loaf to blade.
Carefully take out the shallow side of your Dutch oven from the preheated oven and drag in your dough resting on parchment. Quickly place the pot back in the oven, cover with the deep end of the Dutch oven, and bake for 30 minutes.
After 30 minutes, open the oven and take off the lid of the combo cooker (set it next to the other half inside the oven), and bake for an additional 25-30 minutes until well colored.
Conclusion
As my wife confirmed, this is the best set of white country sourdough loaves I’ve made. No doubt about it. I brought one loaf to our family Easter lunch, and it was gone in record time. Everyone commented on how soft and tender the crumb was, and how the sour flavor was so subtle, it only shows its head barely at the end. The young levain does impart a remarkable, complex taste without overpowering things.
Crust
The crust was incredibly brittle, it was almost thin like a tortilla chip. Incredible. Even after the loaf sat out for a half of a week, it was soft, and easy to cut through and that’s saying a lot here in New Mexico where things dry out to cracker-like consistency in a matter of hours. Look at the range of colors in that crust!
Crumb
The crumb on these loaves was superbly soft and tender. 90% hydration makes the inside of these loaves almost resemble a custard; it’s that moist in there. Pulling pieces apart with your hands has the crumb springing after it snaps irregularly, a most satisfying sight, one that reminds me of my Italian family breaking large pieces of bread at the dinner table.
Taste
Toast this bread and tell me you can only eat a single piece. Go ahead, write back and let me know if that’s possible. I usually eat a single big slice at a time, but with these loaves, I was cutting two. If I can bake bread like this consistently, I’m going to be a very, very happy man. As will my friends and family.
I mentioned earlier that I used a few slices of this bread to make an insanely good sandwich, this is a sandwich I would serve at a restaurant, and I know it’d be a hit. We cooked a recipe recently using caramelized onions, currants, and a paste made from harissa and water. I spread this concoction on one side of the bread, topped it with grilled chicken, tomato, lettuce, and some creamy cheese. Gone in an instant!
Buon appetito!
If you use this recipe, tag @maurizio on Instagram so I can take a look!
99 Comments
I am just loving your blog!! You are the niehbor i don’t have to geek out on bread! I am just now”autolyse-Ing” some dough with a very young SD, about 2 and one half hours since I fed it!!! so excited! But as I said before i use alot more sd than you 400 grams sd to about 1120 g flour and 725g water which is about 79% hydration… anyways here wego!!!
That’s exactly why I started the site: we can all use that neighbor next door to bounce bread ideas off of! Good luck with the extremely young levain, I know some bakers that do this method and have shown excellent results. Can’t wait to hear how it turns out!
Thanks! Retarding at the end of bulk works very well, however, I’m not very experienced in doing so. I know some really talented bakers that do this out of necessity (so they are able to slow things down and make large quantities of bread) and have excellent results. I’ve been meaning to try this as I’ve read it helps with pre-shaping and shaping as well.
Once I knock of a few other experiments I have on my list I’ll get to this 🙂 Thanks for the comment and happy baking!
You’re very welcome! Doubling after 4 hours is a really great sign: you have a strong starter on your hands! If I do an autolyse that is 1 hour or less, I’ll add in the levain. If it’s longer than 1 hour, say 3 hours, then I will *not* add the levain in. If you add the levain in when doing a very long autolyse it will most likely ferment way past what it should as your starter will start feeding on the flour & water and continue during that whole time.
Salt inhibits yeast activity, so that does slow things down, but salt is never added during autolyse, only after.
I hope that helps!
Sounds like a nice and strong starter, that’s great! I’m not familiar with sorghum but as long as you watch how your dough is developing you’ll find the right time to stop its bulk fermentation.
If the temperatures are high where you are (higher than 80ºF), keep in mind fermentation will speed up quite a bit. One thing you could try here is reduce the temperature of the water you’re using during your mix, this will lower the overall temperature of your dough mass and let you work the dough longer before it goes too far.
Overall I’d recommend changing only a single thing at a time while you hone your process. If you have too many variables changing at the same time it can be hard to figure out what is working and what isn’t.
Let me know if you have any other questions and good luck!
Thank you! I add white or brown rice flour to the linen before placing the dough inside to proof. You need just a light dusting, enough to cover the entire basket and anywhere dough will touch. Rice flour can sustain higher temperatures in the oven and won’t burn as easy when baking your loaf.
Happy baking!
hi Maurizio
thank you so much about your posts,especially in my 5th try tartine bread recipe and failure.
i think my starter is a problem,I never feed it twice a day,so i need to try your way,thank you again！i have some confuse here.
1.the book says “young leaven” should be used into dough,but i dont really understand that,my leaven dose smell like my stater ,but not stater that strong,of couse it pass the “flow test”,how can i konw my leaven still young but not ripe？
2.i used basical recipe just 75% Hydration, in my bulk rise,my dough rise 30%-40% indeed,it looks aerated,i took it out and shape it,but it totally SLACK,hard to build a surface tension when i rotated it,after proofing my dough like totally dispersed,i have to shape it before i bake.
i think maybe too much flour i used when i pre-shape and some flour on the surface,so that some flour on the bottom of dough,that is why it is hard to build the tension when i shape it,do you think so or sth i did wrong?
3.do you think i need to build just a bit tension in pre-shape but a lot of tension in final shape,why？and how i can know my shaping or tension just alright
4. i am in a longtime traveling，i dont have dutch oven to bake bread yet,do you think that is the reason why my score on the top of bread never explode,or i need a good shaping to get a good oven spring
thx！
You’re very welcome!
The Tartine recipe is challenging, that’s for sure. It takes practice but we will get you there.
1. You want to try to catch your leaven at the right state, right when it has the power to lift your dough as that’s when it is the strongest. This comes with experience but my clues I’ve left on this post should help you. Try to check in on your leaven around 6-7 hours, if your water temperature you used for the mix is around 80ºF or so.
2. It sounds like your dough did not have enough strength and it was too slack, as you mention. This is a hard thing to judge sometimes, but I would recommend backing off the hydration some, try around 70% to start and then slowly increase. Also make sure you are doing the full amount of stretch and folds I outline on my recipes here, you want the dough to look smooth and hold its shape by the end of the bulk fermentation!
3. You want a tight skin on the outside after your final shape as this helps to create that oven spring when baked.
4. I would definitely recommend using a dutch oven to bake your bread. If you do not have one you’ll have to inject steam into your oven at the beginning of your bake. The dutch oven traps the steam inside and creates a steamed environment for your bread to sufficiently rise during your bake.
I hope that helps, let me know if you have any more questions!
i notice that the way you shaping and chad’s shaping way showed in that video is different to the book 《tartine bread 1》 which i have read,which way is better？and what is the difference？
We do shaping pretty similarly, depending on the overall desired type of loaf. His book Tartine shows only shaping “boule” type loaves, which are round. He has some videos online that show his “batard” shaping which is the more oblong, oval shape. I alternate between the two depending on the type of bread and which way the wind blows that day 🙂
jajajjaja cheers！
Oh – I see you put it in the fridge.
Yes, into the fridge overnight. My fridge is a little on the cool side, but it should be around 35ºF to 40ºF for its overnight proof. As long as the cats don’t eat all the results!
I am making your bread today. Just curious – when you let the loaf wait overnight before baking, what temp is the room or proofing area? My cats help me bake too.
Alexis is a fan of higher Temps, as is CR. Have you changed anything with your mixing,fermenting,baking times? I also like baking straight from fridge. Have you adjusted your fridge temps?
I have not adjusted my fridge temperature, I can’t really do that without risk of spoiling everyday food in there! What I’ve been trying lately is to leave the dough out for an hour or so before putting it into the fridge for the overnight proof. I don’t think it’s exactly what I want in the long run, but it helps get the dough off to a “head start” before a colder proof.
I’m almost thinking of getting a small fridge for the garage that I can turn down to just the right temperature…
More questions! What is the bulk fermentation time you are now using for the Young Levain? In your post it was 4.5 hrs. 2 hrs less than the Oat P. Are you looking for more gas, or what is your indicator? You bake straight from fridge, have you tried the extra hour in the am, while the oven is heating?
Bring them on! My bulk fermentation time always changes with the varying temperatures in my kitchen, the season, water temperature, etc. Deciding when to stop bulk fermentation and divide the dough is a difficult thing, you have to use visual indicators to help you decide when the right time has arrived (even then a little luck helps:)). I look for increased bubbles on the sides of the dough (if using a clear bulk container), some bubbles on top, the dough should be a bit stronger and will pull easily from the sides of the container. When you gently shake the container it should be “jiggly” on top, and you should see a little dome where the dough is higher in the middle and slopes down towards the sides.
I have tried an extra hour in the AM and this helps sometimes if you think your dough needs more proof time. The downfall of this is that it will be a tad harder to slash your dough when scoring and if you dough is super hydrated (like the oat porridge in my other recipe) the dough will spread out very quickly after slashing.
Wait, so what is your build schedule the day before bread day?
Lately I’ve been doing two feedings the day before baking. However, each feeding is with 100g of my rye/apw mix. This let’s the starter consume flour for longer without me having to do a feeding right in the middle of the day (I’ve been away from home the day before on bake days). It’s been working well so far!
Oooo, Can’t wait for THAT post!
Hi Maurizio,
Are you using a young levain all of the time, now? Have you tried it with formulas other than T3?
ML,
Yes all of my recent bakes have been with the young levain method I’ve been posting. It makes the levain build process a bit easier as I don’t have to do anything the night before and since I typically get up really early it works out. I have not really experimented much with other build formulas but do plan on doing so in the future!
Right now I’m still focusing on improving my crumb structure — although it seems like a never ending pursuit!
Hi there. Yum yum yum and hope your sale/move is going well. Question about how you preheat your oven and Dutch oven.
1) I noticed you use a baking stone. Do you also preheat your Dutch oven combo ?
2) if so, where do you place it? On top of the stone or on a rack above the stone?
3) why do you return the top of the Dutch oven to the oven instead of leaving it out? Is it to increase the radiating mass inside the oven? (Is that the same Same reason for using the stone in addition to the Dutch oven?
4). I have trouble with the bottom of my loaf getting too well done. How do you avoid it while using a stone?
Thank you for your posts. They are very informative and inspiring. I’ve improved my starter based on your advise.
Thanks so much! The move is almost over… I cannot wait to get a double oven to up my bread production 🙂
1. Yes, I preheat the dutch oven and the baking stone in the oven for a full hour before baking.
2. I place the dutch oven on top of the stone during the preheat. I place the shallow part on the left facing up, and the deep part on the right facing down. This way I can easily take out the shallow part, slide in the dough, and then quickly cover it with the deep part. The deep part is much heavier and I don’t want to have to turn it over when loading the dough.
3. Correct. I leave the top, deep part of the dutch oven inside after uncovering dough to keep mass inside the oven. This helps to retain (even if just a small amount) of heat in my small home oven when I have to inevitably open the door. Yup, same reason for using the stone and dutch oven: they both keep radiating mass inside the oven to help regulate oven temperature. One step further would be to get oven baking stones that are even thicker…
4. I don’t find the bottom of my bread gets burned in any way. Are you baking straight from the fridge? This does help prevent that to some degree. Another thing you can do is when you uncover your dough after the first part of baking, place the shallow part of the pan containing the dough *on top and inside* of the inverted deep part of the pan (so the shallow pan is sitting inside the deep pan).
You’re very welcome, I’m really glad my entries have been helping!
Ok good call on letting my bulk go further, check out this crumb:
http://cl.ly/VaYF
Incredible taste. Going to experiment more with this and do a writeup soon. Thanks for the input!
I’m going to try to be more gentle next time… 🙂
Thanks for sharing those! Wow your dough looks super aerated and very alive — excellent! Yes, I also do a very, very light pre shape, just a couple spins with my hand & dough knife. After you do this pre shape, do you flip the dough over to begin shaping? I’ve always speculated this might be a place where I lose some gases as well.
I’m going to try to let my bulk go a bit longer the next bath and see what I find. I have felt it could use a little bit more time to really open things up.
Yes! Jiggling has been the best indicator for me, especially since my bulk container does not have transparent sides. Once I notice a good amount of jiggle on top, and a few bubbles, it’s usually time.
Thanks for the tips, can’t wait to see your crumb!
I’ve found, with my flour choice at least, 85% hydration really is the “sweet” spot. I can push it to 90% but the increased difficulty in shaping hasn’t shown results that have made it worth it.
I have long speculated that my bulk step doesn’t go far enough in developing gases to open up that crumb even more. My next bake I’m going to try to push things a bit farther and see just how far I can take it…
That’s great you’ve found a temp that works for you and your climate. That’s all that matters! It’s interesting your temps are so high compared to mine, perhaps this is something else I should try. I’d love to see a shot of your crumb if you have a chance next time.
Thanks! There are endless variables and experiments to attempt — this is why baking is so much fun 🙂
Thanks! Wow your bread looks fantastic! The crust looks nice and blistered and crispy, just how I like it. How long would you say you do your bulk with water that warm?
I’ve been experimenting with keeping my bulk at a warmer ambient temperature and using much less levain in the mix, around 175g instead of 200g or 225g. I’ll be writing on my findings hopefully soon but I see some potential for an even more open crumb.
Thanks so much! I think that’s the addictive thing with baking bread, you always want that next loaf to be better and often it is!
You’re right, if you use a really small inoculation you can achieve the same results — low acidity. I find mixing in the morning when I get up so much easier and the results are just great.
Thanks, yeah I really think that sandwich is begging to be made and sold at restaurants. So tasty!
Maurizio,
Am planning to try this loaf today after adjusting the hydration a bit. I need to lower it before jumping to such a high %…baby steps. But I realized I don’t quite follow your baker’s percentages. By my math, your dough is 100% hydration.
Flour = 1,013 g (levain 112.5 + added flour 900)
Water = 1,013 g (levain 112.5 + added water 900)
I have always used the total water to total flour ratio (water/flour) as my equation. If I understand your approach, your numerator is 900g of water and your denominator is total ingredient weight (2,045g). You don’t seem to count water in the levain as part of your water total.
Can you shed some light on this for me? I want to get the total hydration down to approx. 80-85% but the math is making this difficult.
Thanks.
TR,
You’re right, my hydration is probably higher than I’m reporting. I don’t usually count any of the levain ingredients in my hydration calculation (some bakers do, some don’t).
I actually have a mistake in my writeup, I used 900g of white flour for this loaf not the 800g I originally had listed (I’ve fixed this now) — thanks for picking that up! This means my flour total is 1000g, or ~1113g if you count the levain.
Water = 1,013g (levain 112.5 + 900 H2O)
Flour = 1,113g (levain 112.5 + 1000 flour)
——————————————————–
About 91% hydration
Taking baby steps is the way to go. Increase things gradually each time you bake and you’ll get the hang of these higher hydration doughs in no time. I’d recommend going with 775g or 800g H2O in your bread recipe (not counting levain water), that will get you between 79% and 82% H2O.
Sorry about the typo! Let me know how it goes, good luck today.
Wow, Wow, & Wow! Another fabulous bake & blog. You must be so pleased & excited with your sucess. I hope the new home has a cooks kitchen. Are you going to sell bread @ the Farmer’s Market this summer 🙂
Thank you! I am very happy with this bread, it was a real treat eating it throughout the week. I have actually thought of bringing some loaves to the local farmer’s market… I might end up doing that. The new house is definitely centered around the kitchen, and the best part: double oven! Now I can make two loaves simultaneously, or 4 if I bake right on a baking stone. Can’t wait to step up production 🙂
Wow!!!congratulations!!!!! it is a beautiful loaf!!! I shal try it, thanks for your instructions, you do such an amazing work with it. All your breads are amazing!!!!!
Thanks so much, I really appreciate those comments! Let me know how it goes — good luck!
Great post. I too have been experimenting with high hydration doughs, but 80% is the max of my comfort zone. Maybe I’ll try a young levain and 85% hydration and see what happens. I do know this – my crumb doesn’t look as nice as yours. I think I’m beating the heck out of it and degassing it too much with my stretch and folds. My bulk ferment also more than doubles before I shape the loaves and I think I’m letting it go too long. The oven spring is good (not great), but the crumb is still too tight.
Out of curiosity, does the batard shape fit ok in your round dutch oven? I always figured the length would be too much for a round container after that sucker expands in the oven. But you seem to make it work.
Thanks for the ever-interesting and helpful posts.
it really takes practice to move up the hydration. It was only a few posts ago where 78% was crazy high for me! 90% is really challenging though, I won’t be moving higher than this (I’m not sure the flour I’m using could handle it anyways).
Yes, you definitely need to be gentle on the pre-shape and the shape. For the pre-shape only shape it until you get it into a general boule shape, that’s it. It does sound like your bulk fermentation is going too far. Shoot for about 30% of an increase. It might be that your starter is consuming most of the food by the end of the bulk stage and then you push out those gasses at shape time.
The batard barely fits in my round dutch oven. I had a little trouble with these loaves because the dough was so slack that it ended up spreading out more than usual in my banneton. I cut it really close this time. I think a batard really should be baked right on the cooking surface, not in a dutch oven.
You’re welcome! Let me know how things are going — happy baking!